殷阿笛：创始人将CEO的职位交接给下一代领导层的过程总是有趣的。请谈谈你面临的挑战，以及你在担任这一角色后的尝试。

ADI IGNATIUS:Jason, welcome. Let’s start with your transition to CEO. It’s always interesting how a founder CEO transitions to the next generation of leadership. Talk about that challenge and what you’ve tried to bring to that role.

杰森·布谢尔：我有幸与约翰·麦克基共事九年，并在大约11个月的时间内完成了这次交接。对我来说，这11个月是一个很好的机会，我可以快速进入角色。在交接期，我得到了约翰的大力支持，他非常希望我能够帮助他承担一些责任。当我正式成为CEO时，我已经做好了准备。

对于我们的团队成员来说，接手这样的工作也是一个非常艰难的过程。约翰担任我们的CEO长达42年之久。对我来说，最重要的是与团队成员建立联系，向他们保证，全食超市（Whole Foods Market）的要素、文化、核心价值观、目标等都将保持不变，而我的工作就是帮助承担这些责任，确保全食公司和（其他的）重要元素保持不变。

JASON BUECHEL:

One of the fortunes I had was working with John [Mackey] over the course of nine years and had about an 11-month timeframe to do our transition. It was a great opportunity for me to be able to jump into the role. I had a lot of great support from John where he really wanted me to help take on some of those responsibilities over the course of the 11 months. I was prepared when my day was to step formally into the role.

Stepping into shoes like that is also a really difficult process for our team members. John was our CEO for 42 years, and ultimately that’s what they knew. For me, it was really important to connect with our team members, make sure that we could provide a vision and that they understood the elements of Whole Foods Market, our culture, our core values, our higher purpose. They were going to remain intact, and my job was to help take those responsibilities and support us being able to keep Whole Foods and the important elements intact.

殷阿笛：你不是第一位，也不会是最后一位接替已在位多年的、标志性的CEO的人。对那些即将和你一样接替别人的领导者，你有什么建议？你在交接的过程中又学到了什么？

ADI IGNATIUS:At HBR, we love to give people practical takeaways. You’re not the first and you won’t be the last to succeed an iconic CEO who’s been in place for many years. What’s your advice to people who are in your role and coming in? What have you learned from the process that you’d like to share?

杰森·布谢尔：（我认为，）了解团队成员的心声非常重要。他们在领导层变化的过程中需要什么，什么对他们很重要？对我来说，在这11个月的过渡期里，我利用机会进行了一次“整体对话之旅”（Whole Conversations Tour）的活动，这让我对团队成员的想法有了一些深刻的了解。

有时候，他们担心约翰退休后，我们的文化或质量标准是否会发生重大变化？今后的情况又会怎样？我认为，在交接时，了解所有利益相关者的声音非常重要，无论是供应商、客户还是社区合作伙伴。

我想给大家的另一个建议是，确保自己不只是想成为领导者。对我来说，约翰和我的领导方式截然不同，这也是我们在一起工作时能够如此互补的原因。当然，这也关系到你是否忠实于自己，同时确保你支持公司的发展方向。

JASON BUECHEL:It’s important to understand the voice of the team members. What are they looking for in that transition and what’s important for them? For me, I took an opportunity over those 11 months to do something we call the Whole Conversations Tour, which gave me some great insights for what was on the mind of our team members.

In some cases, they had fears with John’s retirement of whether there are going to be major changes to our culture or our quality standards? What are things going to look like going forward? For our stakeholders, whether it was suppliers or customers, community partners, I think it’s important to understand the voice of all of those stakeholders as you’re making the transition.

I think the other part I would give advice on is making sure that you’re not just trying to be that leader. For me, John and I, we lead in very different ways and that’s why we were so complementary in working together.It’s also about being authentic to yourself and at the same time making sure that you’re supporting the company and where it needs to go.

殷阿笛：谈谈你的过去，你的生活和职业生涯，以及你是如何走到今天这个位置的。

ADI IGNATIUS:Your path to CEO is not typical. Maybe no one’s is, but yours in particular isn’t. Talk about your past and your life and career and how it ended up in this role?

杰森·布谢尔：自2000年以来，我一直有机会在零售业工作。我第一次的经验其实是从咨询获得的。我曾在埃森哲工作，在那里，我有机会与世界各地领先零售商和杂货商合作。我对零售业充满热情。

这段经历让我与全食公司的几位高管建立了联系，比如前任联席CEO沃尔特·罗布（Walter Robb）和首席财务官格伦达·弗拉纳根（Glenda Flanagan）。当时，他们正在寻找新的CIO或CTO，于是他们联系了我。我向他们推荐了一些客户，我认为这些客户都是很好的人选，但他们却回过头来对我说：“为什么不把你的名字也写上去呢？我们非常希望你能考虑加入全食公司。”

于是我来到奥斯汀，在这里待了两天。我真正体会到，更高的目标和核心价值观不该只是挂在墙上的文字，而是我们每天都在践行（的生活）。这让我幡然醒悟到，全食就是我工作和度过剩余职业生涯的理想之地。

加入全食超市后，我负责技术和数字业务。我帮助全食（从0开始）建立了外卖和取餐业务。在此期间，我还帮助研究如何建立一些以前没有的团队和支持措施，比如建立我们的第一个运营支持团队。

随着工作年限的增加，我在团队成员服务（team-member services）（其他公司称之为人力资源）等领域承担了更多职责，并最终于2019年1月担任COO。这个职位让我为下一步升任CEO做好了充分准备。

JASON BUECHEL:I’ve had the opportunity to work in retail since 2000. My first set of experiences really came through consulting. I worked for Accenture and had an opportunity to work with a lot of leading retailers and grocers, both here in the US and around the world. It was that passion I had in working within the retail space.

That career allowed me to connect with several executives at Whole Foods Market, our former Co-CEO, Walter Robb and CFO, Glenda Flanagan. As they were looking to hire a new CIO or CTO, they had reached out to me. I had provided some names of some clients that I thought would be good folks to go for the job, and they reached back out and said, “Why aren’t you putting your name on? We’d really love for you to consider joining Whole Foods.”

I came to Austin, spent two days here, and just really had an amazing appreciation for the fact that the higher purpose and core values weren’t just words on a wall. They were being lived out day-to-day. That was the awakening that this is the right place for me to go work and spend the rest of my career.

As I joined Whole Foods, I was responsible for technology as well as our digital businesses. Helping stand up both our delivery and pickup businesses, which we hadn’t yet launched. During that timeframe, I also helped looked at ways for us to establish some organizations and support practices we didn’t have before like our first operations support team.

As I spent more time at Whole Foods, I picked up additional responsibilities in areas like team-member services (what other companies would call HR), and eventually stepped into the chief operating officer role in January of 2019. And going through that role really helped prepare me in taking the next step up to the CEO position.

殷阿笛：我第一次接触你的员工时，他们说，你是个爱吃奶酪的人。

ADI IGNATIUS:I was thinking about your past even before that. When I first got in contact with your staff, they said “He’s a cheese guy. You have to understand that.”

杰森·布谢尔：我与食物的渊源由来已久。我从七岁起就开始种菜，我的父亲是一名奶酪制作师，我的父母都在奶牛场长大，而我曾在威斯康星州的农村长大，与我们的食品系统有着有趣的联系。今天有机会担任这样一个角色，能够影响和支持我们的食品系统，造福子孙后代，我感到无比高兴。

JASON BUECHEL:Absolutely. I’ve had a long connection to food, been gardening since I was seven. My dad actually was a cheese maker. Both of my parents grew up on dairy farms. I was in rural Wisconsin and just have an interesting connection to our food systems and couldn’t be happier to have the opportunity today to be in a role where I can help influence and support our food systems for future generations.

殷阿笛：全食超市被电商巨头亚马逊收购意味着什么？

ADI IGNATIUS:What does it mean for Whole Foods to report up to a giant, Amazon.com?

杰森·布谢尔：我们在很多方面都感到非常荣幸。我们非常关注全食超市的长远发展，亚马逊能够为我们提供支持，让我们能够以最棒的方式为客户服务。无论是通过技术还是其他服务，亚马逊都能够帮助我们创造出色的客户体验。

同时，我们也在重新定义杂货店在零售领域的前景。我们可以利用这个拥有资源和专业知识的母公司来支持全食超市，这一点非常重要。

我也对全食能保持原来的文化，并继续做同样事情而感到欣慰。我之前提到过，我们仍然拥有相同的目标和核心价值观。虽然我们是亚马逊的一部分，但这确实是一种互补关系：我们能够提供最好的服务，我们也能够融入并利用亚马逊内部最好的资源。

JASON BUECHEL:We are very privileged in a number of ways. First and foremost, one of the things we’ve been really excited about over the last six years is we’re really focused on the long-term of Whole Foods Market and being able to have the support of Amazon providing us with capabilities that allow us to serve our customer in the most amazing ways possible. Whether it’s through technology or other services, being able to help create great customer experiences is one of the things that Amazon has been helpful with.

Also, we’re helping redefine what grocery is going to look like in this space. Having a parent company that has resources and expertise that we can plug into and utilize to support Whole Foods is really important.

I also appreciate the same things where we’re able to be Whole Foods and maintain our culture. I mentioned earlier we still have the same higher purpose and core values. While we’re part of Amazon, it’s really a complementary relationship where we bring the very best of what we can offer and we’re able to plug in and leverage the very best within Amazon.

殷阿笛：人们会对自己喜欢的品牌产生情感联系。有些人喜欢全食超市的品牌及其承诺，但对亚马逊却没有同样的情感。你怎么看待这些人？

ADI IGNATIUS:I think we have emotional connections to the brands that we like. What do you say to people who love the Whole Foods brand and its brand promise, but don’t feel the same emotion toward Amazon?

杰森·布谢尔：在某些情况下，亚马逊会帮助这些客户了解他们可以利用的一些优势，以及亚马逊可以为他们提供的支持。我们在共同研究如何实现我们对环境和可持续发展的承诺。

这是很多客户关心的问题，是全食超市能够施展的力量，也是我们在目前所在的环境中的核心价值。

JASON BUECHEL:In some cases it’s helping those customers understand some of the benefits that they can use, that Amazon can support them as well. Whether it’s providing a quicker checkout in one of our stores using Amazon One, or ultimately some of the support and work, where we’re collaboratively looking at ways by which we’re going to help meet our environmental and sustainability commitments.

That’s something a lot of our customers care about and something we’re able to leverage as Whole Foods and supporting our core value around the environment.

殷阿笛：您认为全食最大的挑战是什么？是仅仅为了尽快发展，增加新店，还是其他方面的挑战？

ADI IGNATIUS:What do you see as Whole Foods’ biggest challenges? Is it simply to grow as quickly as possible, to add new stores? Or do you think about it in some other way?

杰森·布谢尔：我们要做的就是，想方设法扩大我们的覆盖面和影响力。其中一个方法显然就是增加新的门店。但同时，我们也在寻找服务客户的新方法。

今年早些时候，我们推出了一项服务，即通过亚马逊将商品直接运送到客户家中。目前，我们的独家品牌有800多种产品可供选择。这是我们可以为更多客户提供服务的新方式。

我们也非常关注如何帮助实现更高的目标——滋养地球上的人们（nourishing people on the planet）。这不仅仅是为了增长而增长，而是（思考）我们如何成为变革的力量。

我真正热衷的事情之一是再生农业（regenerative agriculture）。这是一个机会，它将让人们利用他们熟悉和喜爱的产品，并为子孙后代继续生产这些产品。

JASON BUECHEL:It’s really figuring out how we expand our reach and impact. One of the ways we’ll do that obviously is adding new stores, but it’s also finding new ways that we can serve customers.

One of the things we launched earlier this year is the ability to have items directly shipped to our customer’s homes through Amazon. We currently have over 800 products available within our exclusive brands, our 365 brand as an example. That’s something we can serve more customers in new ways.

We’re also really focused on ways we can help support our higher purpose in nourishing people on the planet. It’s not just growth for growth’s sake, but how do we help be the force for change?

One of the things I’m really passionate about is regenerative agriculture. This is an opportunity that’s ultimately going to allow us to take the products that we know and love today and make sure that we can continue to produce those for future generations.

殷阿笛：你们的战略基本上还是以实体店为主。你觉得今后是否有必要更多地发展网络零售？

ADI IGNATIUS:Your strategy, if I understand it, seems essentially still to be primarily a brick and mortar one. Do you feel the need to become more of an e-tailer going forward?

杰森·布谢尔：其实，我们如今是一家网络零售商。无论是将产品送到客户的家中，还是让客户在门店取货，（都能证明）我们已经在这一领域开展业务。我仍然认为，我们在实体店体验和在线零售体验方面都有发展的机会。

许多顾客喜欢通过不同渠道购物。无论是自己挑选肉类海鲜，还是与店员互动，在购物时，他们都希望能在店内的中心区域挑选并取货，然后再看周边区域。比如，在奶酪柜前，一位经过认证的奶酪专家可以在顾客挑选奶酪拼盘和烤肉盘时帮助他们选择最合适的奶酪。

JASON BUECHEL: The reality is we are an e-tailer today. Whether you are having products delivered to your house, you’re picking them up in one of our stores, you’re getting some of our exclusive brand products like our 365 products shipped directly to your home: we’re already playing in that space. I continue to see that we’ll have opportunities both in the physical experience as well as online.

A lot of our customers like to shop through multiple different channels. In some cases they’d like to have center of store picked for them and ready for them to pick it up when they shop the store, and then look at our perimeter, whether it’s picking out their own meat or seafood or interacting with our team members. As an example, at our cheese case, a certified cheese professional can help choose exactly the right cheeses as you’re putting together your cheeseboard and charcuterie plates.

殷阿笛：在不远的未来，你认为顾客在全食超市的店内体验会有什么变化？

ADI IGNATIUS:So fast-forward, not way into the future, but a year or two or three. How do you think the in-store experience will change for Whole Foods customers?

杰森·布谢尔：我们将继续想方设法帮助客户简化和方便办事。在顾客眼里，全食有价值的一点正是能够帮助他们节省时间。我们希望能够让客户在店内更快找到想要的产品。许多我们正在投资的技术项目将会支持这些目标。我们还对提升自己团队成员的体验进行了投资，以确保我们的团队成员能够最好地为顾客服务，帮助他们节省时间。

JASON BUECHEL:We’re going to continue to find ways to help simplify and make things easier for our customers. One of the things our customers find value in is our ability to help save them time. In some cases, as I mentioned earlier, delivery and pickup help support that. We want to be able to find ways that customers can find products in the store faster. How can we better provide the expertise across all the different areas within our stores so customers can make sure we’re supporting the amazing events and dinners they’re helping prepare for their family and loved ones, and ultimately, checking out faster in our stores?

There’s a lot of things we’re making investments on where technology will support things, and investments into our team-member experience, to make sure that our team members can best serve our customers and help save them time.

殷阿笛：这里是一位听众的提问，来自波士顿的霍莉。对于公司如何才能更好地培养内部领导者，并让他们成为下一任CEO，你有什么建议吗？

ADI IGNATIUS:I want to go to an audience question. This is from Holly who’s in Boston. Do you have any recommendations for how companies can best develop an internal leader to be the next CEO, including maybe external development programs?

杰森·布谢尔：我非常自豪的一件事就是我们对团队成员体验的投入，以及对内部成长和发展的关注。在过去一年里，我们有超过1.1万人获得晋升，我为此感到自豪。

在我的管理团队中，有两位直接下属是从在商店兼职开始的。我们的运营主管比尔·乔丹（Bill Jordan）是通过收购古奇夫人天然食品市场［Mrs. Gooch’s（Natural Food Markets）］加入我们的。他几乎在我们门店的每一个部门工作过，也在多个地区待过。他现在直接向我汇报整个全食超市的运营情况。

我们正在大力投资职业发展计划。我们对组织内的主要领导岗位都进行了投资。就在昨天，我还为门店团队领导的职业发展项目举行了主题毕业典礼。这个项目为期六个月，旨在帮助我们的团队成员为更上一层楼做好准备。

对于最高级别的领导职位，我们致力于交叉渗透，让管理者在公司的多个不同部门工作。这也是我曾经有幸参与的项目。它让我在担任CEO之前能够领导多个不同的职能部门。

全食另一个非常独特的地方就是高管团队和WFLN——全食超市领导力网络（Whole Foods Market Leadership Network）。这个网络由19位最资深的领导人组成，他们在多方面合作，参与进平时可能不会领导的部门的工作。这能确保我们作为一个团队一起工作，并将（不同的）经验和专业知识带到整个领导团队中。

我还非常自豪的是，在我刚才提到的团队中，有50%的人都是在门店中成长起来的。因此，我们团队最自豪的能力就是了解全食超市，和拥有在某一职能领域开创事业的专业知识。

JASON BUECHEL: One of the things I’m really, really proud of is the investment we put into our team member experience and focus around internal growth and development. We had over 11,000 promotions over the last 12 months, which I’m so proud of.

For example, when I look at my executive team, two of my direct reports actually started in our stores part-time. Our head of operations, Bill Jordan, as an example, joined through Mrs. Gooch’s [Natural Food Markets], which was one of our acquisitions. He’s worked across almost every part of our stores, multiple regions, and now leads operations reporting directly to me for all of Whole Foods Market.

We’re making big investments into career development programs. We do this for our major leadership positions within the organization. Just yesterday, I was actually doing the keynote graduation ceremony for our store team leader career development program which is focused on a six-month period, helping make sure our team members are ready to take that next step up.

For our most senior leadership positions, we’ve helped cross-pollinate and have leaders work across multiple different parts of the company. That was something I was privileged to be part of, being able to lead multiple different functions before stepping into this role.

One of the other things that’s really unique for us is both for our executive team and something we call WFLN, which is the Whole Foods Market Leadership Network, built of our 19 most senior leaders. We collectively work together across all different facets. Folks are helping participate in work in parts of the company they may not lead. For us, it’s really making sure we’re working together as a team and helping make sure we’re bringing some of those experiences and expertise across our entire leadership team.

I’m also really proud of the fact that 50% of the group I just mentioned grew up in our stores, and so that expertise of knowing Whole Foods and being able to build a career in a functional area is something we’re really proud of.

殷阿笛：对于不熟悉再生产品或农业理念的人来说，这意味着什么？

ADI IGNATIUS:For people who aren’t familiar with the idea of regenerative products or agriculture, what does that that mean?

杰森·布谢尔：我认为很多消费者并不了解（再生农业）。目前的表层土壤里，用于生产我们熟悉和喜爱的产品所需的养分正在不断流失。再生技术能用可持续的方式帮助土壤恢复养分。我们要确保，人类能继续支持土壤和更广阔的生物环境，让它们不仅能生产我们熟知和喜爱的产品，还能最终创造一个不像现在这样具有破坏性的生态系统。

JASON BUECHEL:This is an area where I think a lot of consumers don’t understand that our current topsoil continues to lose the nutrients that it needs to produce the products that we know and love. Regenerative is about not only helping bring those nutrients back into the soil, but help in a sustainable way. To make sure that we can continue to support our soil and the broader biological environments not only to continue to produce the products that we know and love today, but ultimately create an ecosystem where it’s not as disruptive as what we’re seeing today.